Transcript of the conversation between Cher Kretz and Erik Wagter on episode 32

Cher Kretz 00:00

This is Episode 32 of the focused mindset. Today, you get to listen in on a conversation that I had with solution focused expert Eric Wagner. He talks to me all the way from the UK, about his amazing experiences. He's a family coach who helps parents turn around their child's most challenging behaviors. But first, if you're new here, welcome. We're so happy to have you. And don't forget to push subscribe so you don't miss any of the family oriented content that we have here. Welcome to the podcast today we have a wonderful guest, Eric waxer. You are an expert family coach. You work with the solution focused approach. And now you specialize in helping families turnaround challenging behaviors. And I'm so excited about have you on having you on to talk to us about this subject. Welcome.

Erik Wagter 01:41
Well, thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Cher Kretz 01:43

First of all, I just want to find out a little bit more about you share with our listeners, how you came about discovering the solution focused approach for your personal practice and how it's evolved.

Erik Wagter 01:56
Okay. Once upon a time. Many years ago, I as a young child, I discovered that I was super passionate about people working with people and my best friend, he had a Down syndrome sister. And I was just fascinated. So my first career was as a neurosurgeon learning disabilities. And I worked in that field for quite a while, until I qualified in 1998. As a social worker, I moved to England from the Netherlands, I moved to England in 1999, where I ended up working in a boarding school for children with learning difficulties and challenging behavior. After about two or three years there, I finally ended up in a incredible social services team. And they work with families who were at risk of break down. So we were kind of the last service involves, after every other service had already worked with the family, but nothing worked. We were the one team that they were hoping for, that could save the local authority a lot of money because putting children in care is quite expensive. But so my first day that I arrived at this team, I was sent to a training, which was a solution focused brief therapy. That is what it was called here in the UK. Later, we changed it to the solution focused approach. And I came from a background where you know, you just look at the problem. So I really had to work hard to getting used to this. But once I started to see that some of my colleagues who were implementing the solution focused approach, once I started see that they got much quicker results than I did, I became really super interested in this. And that is also where my manager at the time made the decision that as a team, we're going to become a pure solution focused approach team, which meant that for us men that we if we're going to work with a family, we only knew where they left what the names were, and that it was safe to go there. We had no history, it was just as it was, it was brand new information that we got. So that was my introduction in to the solution focused approach way of working. And in that team, I stayed for six years, specialized in solution focus became a trainer to train other staff across the local authority. And after six years, I left that team to start my own training and coaching company called solution focused, trained social workers, family support practitioners, basically anyone working with families for over 10 years in the solution focused approach, and then really specialized in becoming an expert family coach around behavior. Because what I noticed was that even though we got families really onto a good path, help them to find a solution a day that worked for them. I often saw them coming back to us after six months or eight months. And I started to think why is that and That is where I realized that what we forgot to do or what we didn't do, was helping them to understand why do their children behave that way, what is driving their behavior? Because often the people that I worked with were at a place where they really felt that help my child is ruining my life. And you know, with that mindset, it's very difficult to go forward. So I really focused on what can I do to help the family understand why the children or why they themselves as parents, what was driving their behavior? And so that is where the interest started with the whole behavioral side.

Cher Kretz 05:40

That makes a lot of sense. And I can imagine, I'm picturing you in that situation, where you're moving from helping the actual families to training. What what kind of powerful moments Did you see or what, what helps you continue seeing that this approach really works? Like? What are some of the things you noticed in that time?

Erik Wagter 06:02
Yeah, it's an interesting question, because at the beginning of every training, I asked people, what is your approach? How do you work with these families, because they are in an extremely important position, they are there to change the trajectory of the family's future. In that could go in all directions. And I would say 85% of the people that I asked that question to, they said to me, I feel that I am just winging it. And that was shocking, in a way. So when I explained the solution, focus approach, how actually how simple because often people are overwhelmed, they go into this family, and they don't even know where to start. How do you approach that, but the solution focus approach has got, or the way I developed it, based on my experience, and the training that I received myself, I divided it in five, easy to follow steps. And so I trained them in it. And the interesting thing, what it did it before it started to change the lives of the families that they work with, it started to change their own life, their way of thinking of asking powerful questions, you know, instead of focusing on, you know, one of the solution, folks principles is that, instead of focusing on what you no longer want, let's focus on what it is that you do want, you know, because every time when you ask a parent, you ask them a question, what is it that you would like to achieve from working with me, they will tell you what it is that they don't want our children to stop fighting, I want my partner to stop being a lousy couch potato person, you know, they tell you what it is they no longer want. So by just shifting that, and even the social workers that I work with, and that I coached, they will tell me what it is that they didn't write in their team or in their work. But we have to do them. Well, the solution focused approach teaches you to focus on what it is that you do one, and then go more detailed. What does that actually look like? And you know, me, if I talk too much, you have to stop me because this approach when you get me going,

Cher Kretz 08:17
It gets me fired up to trust me. That's why I mean, it's it's exciting. But I know that when we are talking to parents, yes, this is a very brand new concept, because I believe that parents have every ounce within them that they want to focus on the things that they want, rather than the things that they don't want. But in those moments, the things that they don't want seem so huge, it seems like this big, big thing is because it's a big, a much bigger mindset shift than they think it's not like that little sentence, it's it changes everything about the way that they approach their families.

Erik Wagter 08:57
And that is the powerful thing, you know, I see the solution focused approach as something that you need to drip feed into the family. So when I first meet the family, you know, the solution, one of the other principles is we see the family as the expert in their own situation, which is a very respectful way of, you know, working with a family rather than coming in as a professional, telling them what they should be doing.

Cher Kretz 09:23

So isn't it interesting that we've ever got that mixed up in the first place? Because we know in our own families, just we're the ones that, you know, we're the ones that are in our home and see what happens every day in and out. We might have been making some mistakes. But we're still the experts. And I wonder how we ever got that mixed up in the first place.

Erik Wagter 09:42
I think when we when we're not conscious of what we do, I think we go down the sort of path that naturally come to us. And I think what we naturally are is problem solver solvers. We want to fix things. And so we also want to fix these families, but you One of the biggest tricks is is to actually move away from offering them suggestions and ideas. But get them to think about their own situation through asking powerful questions so that they feel that they come up with their preferred future. That's the path to their preferred future. they own it, because when someone owns it, they are way when someone owns the solution, they are way more likely to follow through with the chosen action, you don't tell a child what to do, tell them what to do, and a child will refuse will rebel or do the opposite. And adults, we are just like little children only a little bit older, telling me what to do. They might do it. But if it didn't work next week, when you meet them again, they said oh, tried it didn't work. And who do they blame you the work

Erik Wagter 10:48
So therefore, you know, what I love about the solution focus is the whole concept of moving away from telling them what to do, to asking powerful questions to give them that ownership to describe what they would like to achieve from working withthe worker.

Cher Kretz 11:03

Yes, yeah. And then the powerful work happens in the family. And and yes, I so encouraged by hearing about how you personally started seeing success using the solution focused approach, knowing that over here, where we live, some many people are in a very beginning stage of even understanding what this might be. And I run into parents that are thinking, well, how can I ignore all of these problems? How can I ignore these behaviors? Isn't that kind of like, not punishing them and not helping them be accountable, and they get stuck in that loop of of thinking, and it's challenging to jump over to that other side of really starting to dive into the solutions?

Erik Wagter 11:54
I agree. I would review as you're talking, I just had flashbacks of, you know, lots of these families that they were challenged. They were really, really challenged. But you know, I always say to families that I believe, and I don't mean that in a patronizing way, but they are intelligent people. They have brains to think they can make decisions. And, you know, I always ask them is what you're currently doing? Is it working for me? And if the answer is yes, I said, well get don't get carried away with it. But often, the answer is no. I said, What if it's not working anymore? You know, what you continuously are doing is you are doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome. So if something is not working, you have to think of a new strategy. And that process, you need to keep following through until you have a strategy that works. The mindset shift I see the parents need to make.

Cher Kretz 12:48

Yeah, I'm glad we touched on that, because that's exactly it. It's like when a parent is sitting in their family, and it's just them and themselves thinking about it. If they can just sit down and be honest with themselves and say, is what I am doing right now working. Yeah. And then being able to look in the mirror and say, am I am I going to own up to it and do something different? Or am I going to keep doing the same thing that's not working? That's, you know, yes, it's confronting, but guess what, like you said, It challenges you in a good way. Ownership,

Erik Wagter 13:23
It's all about ownership. The more ownership we can give the parents, the more influence they can have in their own situation. You know, often parents are here in the UK, a lot of families like to point with the blaming finger at its the local authorities fold is a social workers fault. It's the school's fault. It's my child, my child needs to change that everything will be okay. I am personally, I believe that, you know, when I work with a family, I don't want to work with the child because I know that if I can influence the parent to the level where they understand that why the child is behaving in a certain way, once I get to influence them, it has a knock on effect on the child. You know, if I work with the child, and I don't touch the parent, that the child will go back into the system, the family that creates it, that you know the seeds that they're sowing into the child's life that creates a harvest and you know, and so that is the situation. I like working with the parents.

Cher Kretz 14:25

Yeah, I love working. I mean, obviously, I wouldn't be doing this podcast if I didn't absolutely love working with families, which I do. But I do see what you're talking about. Because coming from my point of view, working in the school districts here in in the States, my primary job is to work with my client, which is the student and the student is my client number one, and I love that they're my sweet little student, but sometimes I have limited time to talk to the parent, and they're the ones that are making, you know, they're trumping me. You know, if I I can do that work with them. But guess what the parent is the most powerful person in that child's life. They, they listen to their mother in the womb,
they listen to these people, influenced them and seeing the way they act and the way
they move in their homes from minute one. And so anything that I say, is going to instantly be trumped by whatever happens in that home the moment that they step in that door. So it's Yeah, so it's so it's so amazing and enlightening when we can say, wait a minute, I love working with kids. But when we're working with parents were influencing the family unit, and parents out there that are listening right now should be encouraged by the fact in my opinion, like sometimes they're going to go, Oh, I'm doing so many things wrong. You know, well, how about being encouraged about the fact that there's a different way to look at things? It's exciting?

Erik Wagter 15:54  Yeah, totally.

Cher Kretz 15:56
Do you ever see that light up where you you've worked with a family and you see that light bulb Go on, they're like, Oh, my gosh, there's a different way of looking at this.

Erik Wagter 16:04
I remember, I can't remember her name. But I, in the last two years, I've been also working in child protection. And I remember one mother who came from a domestic violence relationship. And she, she had three children, and one of their children she really struggled with, and she was fit, she was kind of how do you call it pouring her pain out with her husband into her onto the child's. And I remember, for weeks and weeks, she was just stuck to the fact this child is ruining my life, his child is ruining my life, until I got through to her and explained to her that the behavior of the child was coming from an unmet need. And the child so desperately wanted to have love and connection with his mother. But he saw mother in a very painful position because of the history. And so he couldn't fix mom, and therefore his behavior became all over the place. Because he couldn't get that connection with her. So he find found other ways to get connection, but not positive connection or negative connection. So finally, Mum understood what I was telling her. And then for
about a period of a week, I think it was seven or 10 days, she stuck to one exercise. And that was it all had to do with her love and connection. You know, one of the things that she had to do is for for 7-10 days, focusing on what could she do to make this child feel loved and connected to her without expecting anything back. And I remember this lady was depressed all the time. And I remember walking into her home, and it was the biggest smile on her face, the biggest smile on her face. And she said, Eric, I got it, I got it. And that is the most powerful thing because I can't make someone change. Once they get it. And they understand it. It's beautiful. Yeah, so so I do, I do recognize what you said.

Cher Kretz 18:06

Yeah. And this brings us to the second point that you said, where you notice that as much as the solution focused was making a huge difference, that there was an element of missing your the parents, you know, there was an element missing, that wasn't allowing them to take that next step. And you kind of refer to that next step right there, I want to dive into this, I will also want to do this in light of a specific situation that I'm able to have an influence. In my own coaching, I recently worked with a parent I'm currently working with the same parent with a child that is, is displaying a lot of the behaviors that we talked about. It's not just that they're disobeying. It's not just that they forgot to do their chores, it's that there's this need to control the family, that the child begins to get in a loop, almost like a habit loop of doing the same type of behaviors of roping them into maybe an argument or a yelling match, or some type of fit that ends it ends awfully every time. You know, she had said, you know, it seems like my daughter's always had this, you know, it seems like it's always been. And so it's very difficult for her to jump over and realize that there might be a different way of approaching their daughter. Like what would you say to someone who's in a situation where they feel like their child has always been that way? How can we change it?

Erik Wagter 19:44
Okay, so, you know, this is what I love about doing this work because there is no one path that you take when you've got a family in front of you. You've got to sit there and you've got to have all your knowledge and your toolbox with you and thinking okay, well I'm not going next. And I often say to a family, I tell them a story that, you know, when a child is born, the baby comes out what I would say clean, you know, it's like a typical child where the parents haven't had like a drug addiction or something like that, the baby comes out, totally clean, it doesn't come out medical demanding, well, it demands love and attention, but it doesn't come out being disrespectful and stuff like that. So, when you are a beginning parent, you are not fully aware of how much influence you have into the job or the seats, what I call this a sow the sowing and reaping method, how much seeds you are continuously sowing into your child, because your child came to you clean it, there was nothing there. And then throughout the years, either for the parents or for the environment, the nursery or anything, seeds have been sown into the child. And at some point, a harvest appears. And I share that story with them, because I want them without me telling them, well, how much have you got to do with this, or how much you know, because that is too much a aggressive approach, we don't wonder, but I'm planting a seed in our thinking about what influence could have been in my child's life that might have contributed towards this, but and then I'm sort of leaving that. And then I'm taking them to a process that is called the six human needs. And I will tell them that, you know, I personally don't believe that children misbehave, because they want to upset you or they want to ruin your life or something like that. I said, I believe that children misbehave because of their inability to meet their human needs. So I started to explain an each parent, I will explain it differently, because you got in front of you. But if I would give you an idea of how I would explain it is I will say to the parents, you know, for a child to be happy and fulfilled in life, a child has six human needs that they need to meet at the highest level possible. And they can meet that need those needs in a in two ways in a positive way, which is often takes more work is hard work, or in a negative way, which is often instant gratification. I want it now. And I then say so I explained that those needs are certainty, challenge variation, significance, love and connection. And then the fifth and the sixth one is growth and contribution. I will immediately say to them, I often have that on a sheet for an answer, they don't have to remember, I immediately say let's forget about the last two, let's just focus on love, nonetheless, focus on certainty, challenge variation, significance, and love and connection. And then I will explain to them, I believe that your child is behaving in the way that they are behaving, because one of these needs is is not met at the highest level Nope, your child is trying to meet those needs at the highest level.

Cher Kretz 23:22
Right. Okay, and meet those needs. Yeah.

Erik Wagter 23:25
So if you look at your the storage, or the family that you just discussed. Right, right, a chart, I think is very controlling. So when a child is very controlling, it's often because in life, the child feels out of control,

Cher Kretz 23:43 right.

Erik Wagter 23:44
That could be either at school where you know, where they are struggling with processing information, or where they're struggling getting along with other children or they are struggling with what happens in the house maybe. It will be many things but for the child to reach a certain level of certainty, becoming controlling is a way to reach them. So the same thing thing with variation and challenge. Yeah, when a child is born in life, you often see a child go to do well, you know here in England, he would say in a positive way but social workers will do or organization if children are showing challenging behavior and challenging variation is the issue there might take them to mountains and do up siding with them, you know, or do positive exciting activities to top up that need of change and variation in in a positive way rather than let's go smoking or let's go stealing or you know, that sort of stuff. But for and then just look at significance for the particularly for the boys. If I tell you briefly a little story picture, little George Little George is four years, five years old, he's on the playground. And little George says he doesn't know he's not thinking, Oh, I don't feel significant. It's not like that. But his subconscious, he doesn't feel important. He doesn't feel that he matters. So what could little George do to become instantly significant? You know, he looks around, he sees little Geoffrey, he grows over that. And he kicks me out Jeffrey, really hard. And within seconds, he little George becomes the most significant person on the playground.

Cher Kretz 25:34
Oh, you have the workers rushing over, you have crying, you have other kids pointing. Oh, this is major significance real fast? Yes,

Erik Wagter 25:42
Absolutely. So if we think of schools, what I hope that schools will do is rather than really focusing on the negative behavior, if they would have had my training, and they understand that he's doing that, because he doesn't feel significant at all. And what can we as a group of teachers do, to make little George feel significant as as significant as possible at the highest level. So there might give him a prefecture or a playground buddy, or someone who delivers messages. And as he starts to feel significant, you will see the negative behavior fade out, and feel great in all of these needs. So this is what I started to do. So with your family, I would ask them to, to explore their child's negative or challenging behavior. And then look at those four human needs the certainty, challenge variation, significance, love and connection. And then ask them the question, what need do you think your child is trying to meet? You know, because that is where you know that challenging behavior is coming from they're desperate to have that certainty. And this girl, or was this ago, I think,

Cher Kretz 26:58 yes, yes.

Erik Wagter 26:59
She is becoming very controlling over and over the family situation. And that is what gives her that certainty. But she's choosing the negative path to get what she wants. So this, this is where parents, once they understand it, they then go have to go on a journey and ask themselves, what can they do as parents to top up that need in a really positive way. And, you know, the story that I just shared before about that lady with a domestic violence situation, once she understood how to talk about the love and connection with her son, and she did that consistently, without expecting anything back, because that is the secret ingredient, you don't expect anything back, the magic happened, the child's needs were met. And as soon as they were meant, over time, his challenging behavior faded out. It sounds simple, it really is simple. But because we, this family hasn't been like this and stuff like that for many, many years. It takes some time to help them to start thinking differently. But it is really powerful. And what I notice from parents is that they are so excited that finally there is actually something that makes sense, there is a logic to it all. And something that they personally can do without having to depend on the system to sort them out.

Cher Kretz 28:28

Or just depend on what they've known from they're trying to grapple with, you know, how they were raised. And then they're trying to find support to figure out what to do. And many times they hear, well, maybe you're not disciplining enough, maybe you need to be harsher. Maybe you need to you have a heavier hand. And they're left without a real resource in that scenario.

Erik Wagter 28:50
Yeah, but but the key thing I think is, it starts with understanding, it starts with increasing their awareness of why is their child behaving that way there is logic, once you understand the logic, you can at least Yes, it is not nice that it happens. But you can move away from that pain and frustration of why is my child like that? And why are we as a family experiencing this, because there is a way out. It is hard work. But investment now means return on investment later. And that is all about the mindset that the parents also need to see. You know, that's a it's in their hands, they have the tools to do it.

Cher Kretz 29:35

100% and it's in and it's not to any fault of the last generation when they parented and we're unaware, you know, like many parents will be like, well, that's the why my child was parented. So therefore, I want to do something different. They were doing the best they could with the knowledge that they had, you know, and many times there's adults that have gotten along very well and done great. But that was it was a challenging thing for them to figure out how to get their needs met, because of the approach that the parents had instilled in them. So when we have these parents, these courageous parents that want to do something different, like many of my listeners, right now, they want to do something different, even though it's a harder road, they first have to say, you know, it's not that any other path was. We don't want to villainize that path. We're just saying, you know, what, if there is another way that could make a difference? Why not give it a shot, and even more so now than ever before? If a child can get an instant gratification, if they're struggling from feeling significant in their home, and the moment they cause an uproar, they feel significant. It's an instant shot, and they're good to go for the next few hours until they feel insignificant once again.

Erik Wagter 31:01
Can I just tell you one short story around?

Cher Kretz 31:04
Oh, we love stories? Yes. Let's Let's listen to a storytime. storytime.

Erik Wagter 31:09
Yeah, I was working with this family. The 15 year old son, let's say that his name is Ben. He was at the top of his class, he was really intelligent, doing really well. But outside of school, he was stealing doing drugs and being regularly picked up by the police. His mum was a police officer. Yeah, she really felt when I met her first, he is doing this to ruin my life, you know, obvious that way he's doing it. So it's cool, no problem outside of school, serious problems. So I got to know them a little bit and their family situation is that initially, there was mum and Ben together, then stuff that moves in. And then how sibling number one was born and how sibling number two was born. So when I arrived, there was a two year old, a four year old and 15 year old Ben. Okay, I could already start to see what was going on. So I explained to them, you know, the six human needs, I initially told them, I don't believe that Ben is doing it to ruin your life. I believe he is desperately trying to have his needs met at the highest level. And he's doing it in the wrong path. I showed them, you know, certainty, challenge variation, significance, love and connection. And I asked them, which need do you think is he trying to meet and my gut feeling was affordable, they say, challenge your variation with the fighting and the smoking and the stealing. But when they started really looking at their, at their family situation, at the very beginning, when it was just mom and Ben, they were fine. They had a relationship like a house on fire. And then a step that moved in, he took him out to the cricket and stuff like that, yet, they still got Alright, then sibling one came serving to Kane. And suddenly, Ben was no longer a significant member of a family, we all know how busy a two and a four year old can be so 15 year old when he was left out of everything. So he started to behave in a way to show to basically shout out Hello, I am not a significant member of the family. So the parents recognize this. And they came up with a plan when I asked them, What is it that you think you could do to top that need up for a period of for, let's say, 30 days without expecting anything back? And they did it? You know, they came up with they asked him to be responsible for the shopping list for the cooking, what activities are we going to do the holidays. And over a three week period, you know, you could see every week, they managed, particularly they managed to stick to the not expecting something back. And that is the hard part. Because as parents we can be very reactionary to work towards what happens to us. But they had to really stick to keep topping up the need keep topping up the need and not expect anything back and three weeks. And they really shared with me that they could not believe the turnaround, the shift that was nothing of that challenging behavior because his needs were fully met. He was a significant moment. And that's how I don't want to say how simple it is. But challenging behavior, in my opinion, you know, often comes from that unmet needs that the child desperately is trying to meet. These parents could turn that around. Yeah,

Cher Kretz 34:30

yeah. That's a beautiful story. And it absolutely, it gave me a little goosebumps because you're talking about a 15 year old. A rough age, you know that. That's when their independence is, is running around inside of them in ways that that we can, you know, forget about the hormones involved here. And to be able to allow that family to give him the need that he was so desperately crying out for And then for them after a period of three weeks to be patient enough to see those results. That's beautiful.

Erik Wagter 35:05
Yeah, definitely. And it's also very satisfying as a worker, you know, to see that the future of that child's life has changed. And that's the cool thing about it. Yeah.

Cher Kretz 35:16

Yeah. And when you're talking about those behaviors, I mean, you're talking about a possible lifetime of addiction or, you know, getting arrested. I mean, these are things that hurt your life, you know, bad. Right, right. Wow, that's really a great story. Do you ever have parents that don't want to wait, you know, and they feel like they're coming back at you and being like, this is just taking too long or is not working? And you just kind of just want them to wait that extra week? Have you ever had those situations? Where they aren't being patient with it?

Erik Wagter 35:46
Yeah, a lot of the times, and the one thing that I always say to them, you know, is what you were doing before it wasn't working?

Cher Kretz 35:55
It's the reminder. Yeah, it's three, let's get back to the reason we're doing this. Right.

Erik Wagter 35:59
Exactly. And then I also talked about just imagine, you know, if we will be successful, what difference would it make? And you know, and I get exercise, because when they answer that, and I made that list, I keep asking what else? What else? And I make that list very long. I help them to increase their motivation. For you know, what, what's in it for them? Because often parents don't want to know what's in it for me? And, therefore, we need to show them again, you know, just imagine that we are successful, what difference would it mean for you for your personal time for your relationship, if your partner for the future of your family, for the future of your children, and just get the excitement and motivation up again.

Cher Kretz 36:42

Yeah. Now, one more thing that this is just kind of popped in my mind. But if you have two parents, that are co parenting, either in the same house or in a different house, and one is on board, and the other parent is not on board? Have you ever worked in that situation,

Erik Wagter 37:00
Runaway runaway. No, we know every family, the reason why the parent who is not on board, there could be a different reason for every parent, but it often is because they also have been hurt in the past. You know, they're upset about what the child might have said to them the words that they have, you know, so, I initially mean, if they are living together, I often speak what I call to the strongest link that wants to, but as I'm speaking to that person, I totally keep the other person in mind who is sitting maybe in another corner of the room. And I'm speaking actually to them, without them realizing it. And I often I trigger something, to get them to come on board, but sometimes it needs an individual individual session with them, just to for them to be acknowledged their feelings to be acknowledged for them actually, to be listened to, you know, because often, when people do not feel listened to they are, they're resentful that you know, they have anger inside of them. So I've learned, you know, in a solution focused way, when you listen deep when you truly listen to someone, and you give that feedback to them, that you hurt them, you really understand where they're at,

Cher Kretz 38:21

I'm reminded of a pair of family that I worked with, have a teenage boy. And the parents were arguing had never had an argument of type of relationship. And they were arguing so desperately over their two different ways that they felt they should approach their son's problem, that their son was feeling like a huge problem in the family. They were he was the reason he was making them fight. And, and then obviously, that's not going to solve the problematic behavior because the two adults involved were then arguing about how to handle it and and the kids there's shrinking down going, Well, this just proves it. I'm the reason they're fighting. You know,

Erik Wagter 39:03
What you're saying that is so powerful. I don't know if you know, Tony Robbins? Well, he shared one. This was the story. Were a little free year old, two, three year old, he saw his parents fight really aggressively. And so in his subconscious, he was desperately trying to figure out how could he stop them from fighting. And as he was watching a little cartoon, called rocky or something like that on television, the rookie, when he wanted help, he shouted out. Rocky, he started, so his child started to develop a stuttering issue, which made his mom and dad stop fighting and focus on the problem. Wow. In one way, the two three year old was really clever subconsciously, of doing so but then he turned 30 years old, and he was still stuttering. Because of a decision that he made when he was little and what Tony did when he was working with him to make a long story short, he helped him see that. And within minutes of realizing that the guy could let go of that little boy in him, he no longer needed to start to help his parents. It was all okay. And he went from a serious stutter to someone who suddenly could speak fluidly. So what happens as a child is so powerful, it could have such a huge effect on who you are.

Cher Kretz 40:31

Yes, yeah, that's so true. And I know that when we as parents have so much passion for helping others, sometimes, yeah, we're just helpers. But I get the feeling that you have a lot of passion in this, because, because I know you're a parent yourself. I mean, how did you come about? Just really knowing yourself that this is something that everyone needs to know that how to help their child? What experiences have you had in your life?

Erik Wagter 41:01
Um, that's a good question. I've never thought about that, about why that came to me. Other than, like I said, I've always had a passion for people, I find people fascinating, you know, but if I look at my own life, I mean, my oldest son, he was at the age of three years old, he was he's now 18. At the age of two, he was diagnosed with autism. And there is with autism, there is no such thing as a manual that you just open up and follow these instructions. And it all will be okay. Yeah. So at an earlier stage, in being a parent myself, I was thrown into a situation where both my wife and I, we came from different places, because men and women, we respond differently. men often think in a very logical way.
So I was in denial. I said, Well, if he doesn't talk, when he's four years old, then I start worrying about it. But my wife became very proactive, and started researching things. But that's a story on his own. If anyone wants to read a story, go to Amazon Miracle In Slow Motion, just a plug for her book.

Cher Kretz 42:13 Slow down, what is that?

Erik Wagter 42:15
Her book is called Miracle In Slow Motion, from Autism Diagnosis To An Exciting Future. And she recorded our we call that a diaries, audio diaries, written diaries, video diaries, since she was born, we both did, but she spent seven years writing a book that had to be split into books, because it was so big, whereby she really studied what worked, what didn't work. And she put all of that journey into the book, a miracle in slow motion, you can work with your child, but what I learned quite quickly, is that how I was as a parent has a massive influence on my child. So that's where I started to get both my wife and myself an interest in personal development, you know, why do I behave, you know, the more I can control her understand how I behave, and how I respond, the more influence I can have on my child. And so that is when I became interested in the Tony Robbins stuff, and the six human needs is something that he teaches, there is an incredible good book about the five love language, love languages, which I also have part of my training that I do with parents. And so the whole concept of us taking ownership of what we do, because whatever we do, will have a consequence. That's how I got passionate,

Cher Kretz 43:43
What kind of positive results have you seen with your child,

Erik Wagter 43:49
If you look at my son, now, you know, at the age of eight, he was written off by the educational system, they told us, we cannot reach him, so we cannot teach him. And so we at the age of eight, we took him out of school, and we found a particular program in America that really worked for us. And we, I left my job as a social worker, and my wife and I, we free ourselves into this. And it was all about ethical joining the child instead of forcing the child it was joining the child in his world and becoming fully invested in his world, to the level whereby he fully trusted you that you can gently start showing him things from your world when the story is too big, but now 18 years old, you know, the school he at the age of 80 could really struggle to talk process information, sensory overload, and we found many things you know, auditory integration therapy, which is sound and learning is sound and light therapy. We found us supplements for his diet. And then the program in America all together, we discovered he was highly intelligent. We just had to discover that school was causing. Well, you probably will see that with some of your students. school environment. It creates a lot of stress in the child. Yes. And for his children have sensory overload school is like hell on earth.

Cher Kretz 45:22 For some kids.

Erik Wagter 45:26
But I'm talking about the children. My child sensory overload. Yes,my wife and I, we couldn't even talk talk or hum, we couldn't whisper we couldn't play the piano. We never both musicians, we couldn't, we couldn't do anything, he would go ballistic. So once we took into the auditory integration therapy, but after 10 days, he came out of that, no problem with sensory overload anymore. So long story short, take him out of school, we are doing everything to take the stress out of the body. And then we discovered that when that happened, he opened up for learning. And then he got the equivalent of a GCSEs and that those GCSEs are then sort of diplomas, the children, teenagers got here, distinction in a music diploma is an incredible pianist. You know, it's Yes. You know, lots of friends, everything that they you know, and this is the one thing that I didn't like, at the very beginning, people said about autism, that it is a lifelong condition. And that was a mindset that I didn't want to adopt, I believe in, let's take the roof of our expectations. And I think every parent should do that.

Cher Kretz 46:35 Stop labeling right?

Erik Wagter 46:38
Yeah. And when we take the roof off, but just go into work towards releasing that fullest potential. And whatever that is, for every child is different. But that was just a mindset. So in my own family, I started to implement all these things that I learned, but particularly, I just mean, I think, like I said, I've worked with over 1000 families, I've seen so many different situations, I started to see patterns, I started to see a real understanding what worked and what didn't work, and how to connect with people, you know, that the solution focused approach has got such clear steps, you know, connection, clarity, commitment, I started to implement all of these things in my own life, but as well as in the family's life, but particularly when I can, this is the most interesting thing, when I started training social workers in the six human needs and all the other things that they needed to know, outside of the solution focus, I started getting emails from people who said, I implemented the 60 minutes in my broken relationship. And over the year, six people contacted me saying that they got their husbands to come back and live with them, and implement the six human needs. At the end of the show our say something to the listeners about that. But they did that, and their relationship was restored. And I thought, yeah, that is powerful, powerful stuff.

Cher Kretz 48:02

It is so powerful. And if if you really look at the fact that if you are unwilling, you and your wife unwilling to look in the mirror and really say, what can we do differently, number one, and then number two, choose to, like you say, take the roof off of it and say, let's look at what's capable, what we are capable of, rather than the limitations that were being told the combination of those two things. I mean, that's just brilliant.

Erik Wagter 48:31 Absolutely, yeah.

Cher Kretz 48:33

And I think anybody can do that in their home, you know, anybody can take those two steps and say, I'm willing to look at myself in the mirror and take a good hard look at the seeds that I'm planting. And then I'm willing to look at the possibilities that are there. And just those two things will unlock all of the ability to be able to say, Well, what needs need to be met?

Erik Wagter 48:58 I agree with you.

Cher Kretz 48:59

I think that I need to put this in your hands right now, we always do a solution focused exercise. And it's something that I give my listeners, so they have something to practice based on what we talked about. And I mean, I'm slightly putting you on the spot, but what would you what kind of exercise might you give my listeners that they could try at home, you know, with, they can, just this very next minute after they hear this podcast, they can try this out? What would you what kind of exercise might you give us?

Erik Wagter 49:32
Yeah, so if you're listening, and you're either a parent or professional, you can do this activity. It's really you know, if you're a professional, think of maybe one of your own children, but otherwise think of a family that you might work with. And if you are a parent and you have a child that maybe presents some challenging behavior, then do the following. Take a piece of paper and write the four for these four human needs on a piece of paper, start with certainty, challenge, variation, significance, love and connection. So those four needs. So your task or your challenge for this coming week for, let's say, the next seven days is to look at the child's behavior. And ask yourself, which need is my child or is this child trying to meet with this challenging behavior? Is the child trying to get certainty of something, is a child trying to get challenge or variation, is a child trying to become significant to matter to be important, or love and connection? Once you have identified.. there could be more, but there's always one driver and there was always one important one. So pick that one. And then ask yourself, What can I do? Or what can the family that I work with, what can they do? Normally, I would say for a period at least 30 days, but let's say here for the 7 daysbto top up that need in a positive way. So you can discuss it with your husband or your wife, or your partner. And you say, Alright, we have identified this needs like in the story that I shared with Ben significance was his thing. What can we do to top up this need consistently, for a period of seven days, but then the key thing without expecting anything back, so in it function need to make a decision that when they kick off or trigger you, you're not going to respond to that you're going to continue with topping up that need. It doesn't mean that you have to totally ignore challenging behavior. When there's a story on its own, I will then wait for what I to be met? And how can we meet these needs? That's all builds, right? I would wait for what I call the “green light”, you know, don't react to it there. And then we'll wait for a moment where it does work, that you can talk to them about it, but keep topping them up with that need. And just just see, they will look at you possibly thinking what, what's going on here. But don't, you don't have to say anything to them. If you do that, I'm really curious to hear from you that was there any difference in in your child's behavior, because, you know, specifically if you feel like doing this for 30 days, that is even better. Because it takes a while you know, for it to work, but top of the day because your children are presenting challenging behavior because they're desperate, either to have certainty in their life might be a goal that we spoke about, wants to control things, or you know that doing some maybe some drugs or stealing or you know, Skyping from school, they want challenge variation or significance, you know, the challenging behavior is a link to one of those needs,

Cher Kretz 52:47

Just like they could picture like when they're pouring a cup, and they're trying to get that cup of coffee, that they're going to lead that they're going to figure out which one of those needs and then they're going to top them off?

Erik Wagter 52:58
Or you know, what is funny if they are doing this exercise anyway? If they want to make it really interesting. Is it the same for human needs? If you have a scale from 1- 10? You know, in solution-focused We like scales. If 10 is I'm extremely happy in my life and zero is no, no, I I'm totally meeting that need attend? and zero is I'm not meeting that need at all. Do the task with yourself, you know, say, if I look at my life and at certainty, how much certainty Am I experiencing in my life, 1-10? How much challenge variation? How much significant time with love and connection?

Cher Kretz 53:37 Sure, yeah,

Erik Wagter 53:38
if you score low, then you will understand what you need to work on to become more happier. Because for us to be happy in life, we need to have those four needs met. Yes, the highest level. But that is just if you have spare time.

Cher Kretz 53:52

Right? Oh, yeah, if you have a little spare time. But what's interesting is I would wonder if many times and I think this might be the case for my daughter, and I were very close, and she's 12. And if I scale myself on a one to 10 say that, at this moment in time, maybe I'm not feeling connected, I would venture to say that if she did a scale without me knowing it blind, she might also have that same one on low side.

Erik Wagter 54:22
Yeah. And then you have identified what you can work on. Right, right. Yep. Then we have a clear focus. Absolutely. And but then you can then it can become fun. What can we do to top it off in a positive way. Yes. And then the fun bit, see the results. See the consequences of that.

Cher Kretz 54:41
I love it. And I bet you I'm going to get some feedback on some parents that tried some brand new skills and that's what it's all about us being willing to try new things.

Erik Wagter 54:51
Well, family I always say you ask the question, What made you do this or something like that. For me, family relationships are Everything, you know, when there's something wrong in any of your family relationships with your partner, or if your children, it affects every aspect of life, your productivity, your happiness level, school education, finance. And so therefore, it's the most valuable thing that we have in life. And if we can contribute towards people experiencing a really good family relationship, then we're doing a good job of producing something positive here.

Cher Kretz 55:26

Yes, it's a worthwhile work. It's worth every single moment that it takes to not have that microwave mentality. And it takes time, but it's time well spent. Well, thank you, I want to find out where we can find you. Where can people look you up? Where can we get more information about what you are doing?

Erik Wagter 55:47

Well, I'm making it simple for you if you're interested in a free training, which is titled, Free Powerful And Easy Techniques That You can Impament Right Now, to turn Around Challenging Behavior and Build Amazing Relationships With Your Child, All Without Arguments and Conflict

Cher Kretz 56:06 Yes, yes, yes. And yes,

Erik Wagter 56:08
Then go to expert family coach.com, where you will see a little introduction video whereby I'm inviting you to this training, you just give your name and your email address, and you get instant access to that training. It's around 35 minutes long. But it will leave you with some really powerful techniques that can change stuff personally for you.

Cher Kretz 56:29
All right, say that, say the website again,

Erik Wagter 56:35 www.expertfamilycoach.com

Cher Kretz 56:36

Perfect. And you guys will be able to see that in the show notes. And you can just click right on it and go straight there. And I highly encourage you to do so. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise on this subject. And just being so transparent. We I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

Erik Wagter 56:53
Cher, you're very welcome. Thank you for inviting me.

Cher Kretz 56:58
And this is the end of our conversation with Eric, don't forget to scroll down in my show notes because that's where you're going to find a link to his website. And you'll also find a link to my website, the focused mindset.com where you can always find updated information on how to be a solution focused family. And also tune in to community when you get there. Because I love to keep in touch with you guys and monthly I send out free content so you never miss out on what's going on. Also, you'll see the link to the big life journal. One of the single best ways to help your child learn resilience, especially in this time, this ever changing time that we're living in. I'm an affiliate partner and the link in my show notes will help you guys support this podcast so we can bring you many more wonderful guests, and lots more content just like this. So thank you for being with us today. And go out and meet the most challenging behaviors with confidence. And until next time, keep in touch and take care